Private space entrepreneur and billionaire co-founder of PayPal, Elon Musk, is planning to build a small city on Mars for 80,000 space explorers – but only vegetarians are invited!
He recommends the size of the new society should be around 80,000 people.
“Too few, and the gene and culture pool dries up. Too many and you risk civil war,” he said.
Sign me the fuck up!
(source – The Economic Times)
“The only thing that limits the growth of human populations, proven so far, is successful economic development.”
The plague made a good run of it for awhile there.
And no doubt will again, Porn, and sooner that later. Different microbe, same result….
WWI did a pretty good job too.
It’s the non-linear shit. A buggie flaps it’s wings and ends up on a rat on a ship. Some archduke gets shot on a bridge.
Porn,
My newest copy of Nature provides a list of a few other nonlinear extinction or near extinction or merely catastrophic events to watch out for:
A large eruption of a super volcanoe, specifically either Toba, Campi Flegrei, Yellowstone and Taupo.
Fungi, especially unknown varieties (we only seem to have identified 100k varieties out of a likely 1.5 million on the planet) which may take advantage of climate changed ecosystems to spread find new niches. In theory they could wipe out most of the food crops on earth (potato famine cubed) or even infect humans directly.
Comets and asteroids, of course, but also outsized solar flares (which could wipe out the electrical grids) but also the potential for a ‘short hard’ µ ray burst, caused by the violent merger of two black holes, two neutron stars or a combination. If such a blast was directed at earth from within 200 parsecs it would strip 30% of the ozone layer for ten years and scorch the phytoplankton in the ocean, completely disturbing the food web in the sea.
Vast undersea sediment landslides that create gigantic tsunamis that would wipe out whole coastlines. Last really big one was 8 thousand years ago off Norway, sent 20 meter high waves over the Scottish islands and coast.
so there are some fun facts for a Friday afternoon.
Of course humans would survive all of those events, even the worst, just in much reduced numbers. So no need to leave home just yet.
And as an aside, Porn, the same issue also reports that amongst Atlantic Mollies (a small fish) females are far more attracted to actively bisexual males than to those expressing merely heterosexual affinities!
Yeah that µ is supposed to be a gamma, but not finding a recognizable gamma on my alternative keyboard I thought maybe…. but no. So read gamma for mu.
Bluth -
Hmm, wonder how male Mollies do it? Poor straight ones. At least with humans the majority of females seem to like them straight.
Long time ago on one of these threads i posted some examples of non-linear dynamics as applied to ecology, and some journal references i think. Can’t remember which thread, and it was quite awhile ago. Maybe one of Gunny’s global warming or peak energy threads.
Just received my January edition of the Royal Aeronautical Society news magazine which included an interview with Elon Musk. He gave a talk at the society’s HQ in Mayfair back in January. Wish that I had been there but I believe that it is posted on Youtube. He appeared to focus on near term practial goals but did hint at Mars and asteroid missions. And in his geeky male words in the interview – “You’ve got to show a little leg,….”
It was November last year btw – not January.
Scroll to 5:23 minutes for comment…
The real uses of space. . .
According to 35,000 people who petitioned the White House wanting the US to be bale to destroy the earth. . .and it would help (ahem!) ‘create jobs’ (but, cough, cough, possibly not very long-lasting ones):
I’ve also just come across this:
Interestingly, on the board and among the advisers, apart from redundant NASA folks, are people with these (to my mind, rather significant) ‘qualifications’:
“motion picture producer”
“Hollywood graphic designer and set designer (“Star Trek”)”;
“author and screenwriter”;
A former Congressman and an ex-governor of New Mexico;
“former NASA Chief Information Officer, Silicon Valley internet entrepreneur”;
“former CEO Walden Media (“Apollo 13″/”The Chronicles of Narnia”)”;
“leading space historian and author”;
“aerospace attorney, safety/risk management expert, former U.S. Marine Corps aviator and Gulf War veteran”.
Oh, and three ‘space aware’ (?) venture capitalists.
Now why do I feel so very sceptical about the ‘future of space exploration’, US-style? How much would people pay for a can of Coke that flew to the moon and back? And why? And how many kilos of moon rock—that isn’t theirs, by international agreement—will they ship back to help ‘monetize’ this project? Though I presume they anticipate the US Congress will do the usual and declare both Moon and Mars to be US property regardless of anyone else to help.
Squirrel’s scepticism increases.
From Wikipedia:
Martin Juergens from Germany claims that the Moon has belonged to his family since July 15, 1756, when the Prussian king Frederick the Great presented it to his ancestor Aul Juergens as a symbolic gesture of gratitude for services rendered, and decreed that it should pass to the youngest born son.
A. Dean Lindsay made claims for all extraterrestrial objects on June 15, 1936, and sent a letter to Pittsburgh Notary Public along with a deed and money for establishment of the property. The public sent offers to buy objects from him as well.
James T. Mangan (1896–1970) was a famous eccentric, public relations man and best-selling author on self-help topics who publicly claimed ownership of outer space in 1948. Mangan founded what he called the Nation of Celestial Space and registered it with the Recorder of Deeds and Titles of Cook County, Illinois, on January 1, 1949.
Robert R. Coles, former chairman of New York’s Hayden Planetarium, started “the interplanetary Development Corporation” and sold lots on the moon for one dollar per acre.
Dennis Hope, an American entrepreneur, sells extraterrestrial real estate. In 1980, he started his own business, the Lunar Embassy Commission. As of 2009 Hope claimed to have sold 2.5M 1-acre plots on the Moon, for around US$20 per acre. He allocates land to be sold by closing his eyes and randomly pointing to a map of the Moon.
Adam Ismail, Mustafa Khalil and Abdullah al-Umari, three men from Yemen, sued NASA for invading Mars. They claim that they “inherited the planet from our ancestors 3,000 years ago”. They based their argument on mythologies of the Himyaritic and Sabaean civilizations that existed several thousand years B.C.
Gregory W. Nemitz claimed ownership of Asteroid 433 Eros, on which NEAR Shoemaker landed in 2001. His company Orbital Development issued NASA a parking ticket for $20.
After purchasing the Lunokhod 2 lunar lander, computer game designer and astronaut’s son Richard Garriot jokingly claimed the rest of the Moon in the name of his gaming character, Lord British, under the premise that existing treaties prohibit governments from territorial claims to the Moon, but not individuals.
I figured that the bugaboo would be, how the fuck are you going to find 80,000 people who want to go to Mars to live? But was talking with one guy i work with last night about how fubar’d RI is and how the economy sucks so badly here, we’re all broke as cost of living here keeps going up and up while our income keeps going down and down. He said he wanted to volunteer to go to Mars. I said i still think global warming will solve RI’s problems, the state will be under water in the not too distant future. It may end up part of CT by default anyway.
Amy,
You raise a fascinating point.
People have been seeking the ideal psychological profile for astronauts and such since the beginnings of space flight. Initially, NASA emphasized “above-average degrees of achievement motivation, and aptitude for complex operating environments, and the ability to perform well under stress.” Also, “a willingness to follow orders, adherence to the concept of national service, and the ability to thrive in squadron-like operational environments.” The Soviets came to much the same conclusions and emphasized “stress tolerance, concentration and stability.” By the 1990s, with longer missions contemplated, other desirable characteristics were conjectured; for instance, the European Space Agency began selecting for “social empathy.” NASA began looking for “cultural flexibility [sic], the ability to tolerate prolonged period [sic] of low stimulation, and the ability to coexist with others in confined spaces for months at a time.”
When contemplating lifelong missions, though, what assurances do we have that the psychological traits that seem to work well for longish stretches on the International Space Station are really best for reinventing civilization on Mars? I wonder…might not an overpowering impulse to flee Rhode Island without any regard to the consequences really turn out to be the key? Cynics may scoff, but I think you could be onto something here.
For a rather long while, I believe, NASA would allow no man to be an astronaut who had an older sister. On the theory that the ability to make decisions, of males with older sisters, was permanently compromised.
As a male with an older sister, I find much to be recommended in this theory. I mean clearly not every single one of us, all the time, is compromised, at least I’m pretty sure about that, but… not sure how big sis would react to me saying that, but…
Well, this guy was joking, and i can’t imagine for the life of me wanting to live cooped up, and without trees. I’m a claustophobic anyway. But it may well be appealing for some sort of Bedouin types, especially if there’s financial reward involved.
Bluth,
That simply has to be a myth. For instance, I have an older sister and I’m always patient and full of social emp-
I always coexist with-
I always follow ord-
Damn. You think it really could be that simple?
Amy,
Okay. If you promise to spend the rest of your days in my Martian colony, instead of the King’s Shilling you’ll get this genuine Martian Reserve Note worth eighty-two gazillion Mars Shekels. Immediately upon enlistment. For you to spend any way you want. Up there.
If you’re happy in an arid environment, have the run of the place, and don’t have to be shackled in debt, i can sort of see the appeal.
Where does it say the 80,000 are not going to be shackled in debt? I thought we were talking private enterprise, here. Most (white) colonists of North America signed themselves up for at least seven years of indentured servitude. Okay, maybe, given the hardships involved, these 80,000 might conceivably be looking at some kind of remuneration, but- I bet the cost of their space suits, medical supplies, vitamin supplements, etc will all be charged against it.
You mine sixteen tons of Helium three and whattayou get,
Another day older and deeper in debt,
St Elon don’t you call me, cause I can’t go…
I owe my soul toooooooo…..
The company store.
Regarding the “psychological profile” thing; only the most fanciful guesswork is possible there.
There’s a difference between leaving, say, one’s favorite fishing hole forever, and permanently departing from one’s “external” bodily organs, regardless of whether one “believes” in that kind of New Age woo-woo shit.
The biological reality is that oceans and forests are as much a part of our respiratory systems as are our lungs, for example, and that’s just the tip of the iceberg. Everything’s connected whether we understand those connections or not.
We have no clue about the psychological implications involved in a dynamic like that. Gives a whole new meaning to the term “separation anxiety”.
Can’t remember who said we should just make RI a penal colony, but that may be the way to roll for Mars settlements too.
Porn,
I’m pretty sure I’ve seen that movie. I think the guy with the scariest tattoo wins the girl. And ‘freedom’.
Wasn’t Breaker Morant then. Road Warrior? Nah, he dies too. If it was the Ozzie / Scots dude with the face tattoo, i actually never did see that one.
Squirrel,
Alas, the tiny minds in the White House have vetoed the Death Star. Paul Shawcross, Chief of the Science and Space Branch at the White House Office of Management and Budget, replied on behalf of the administration:
Und so weiter… On a positive note, Shawcross does extoll the Force (really) and is entirely silent on whether the 2nd amendment grants citizens the right to keep and bear their own death stars.
Good thing we’re flush here. It’s like watching our own red dwarf collapse.
http://news.providencejournal.com/breaking-news/2013/01/providence-ri—-the-380-million.html
Porn,
I’m sure the mess in RI has a huge amount to do with dirty inside baseball and lack of a viable opposition, and a host of other corruptions, but maybe there is something else to keep in mind, at least when thinking about when it comes to public sector union pay and benes across the country.
Those contracts were all negotiated before the flood. By men and women (probably mostly men) who were living in a different world. A world where the entire added surplus earned by the nation for the last 30 years or so was going to continue to be paid out to the nations earners in more or less the same proportion that it had been paid since the war. A world in which the iron curtain wouldn’t fall, and China wouldn’t turn capitalist, thus bringing vast new economies (and work forces) into competition with the American worker. A world in which outsourcing and off-shoring of just about any job going, muscle or brain, just wasn’t possible. A world in which, had things gone along the way most people expected it to go, civil service union wages and benes wouldn’t have been, in most cases (okay maybe not RI) not so very different from your average ‘middle-class’ worker.
No one thought all the cream would get vacuumed up by the 1-2% at the top. No one thought the guys in finance would be allowed to gamble everyone else’s money but get paid as if they were taking all the risks themselves, and then pay next to no tax on the obscene profits.
No one thought that just about the only unions left with any bargaining power would be the civil service unions, for the simple reason that they were the only ones whose jobs could not be shipped overseas. A lot of people thought the whole country would have been sharing the surplus of the last 30 years.
In short not very many people saw globalization coming.
So in a way, scandalous as all those numbers are, they are a sad reminder of the world an awful lot of people thought they would, and should have been living in now.
Instead we have public bankruptcy and private oligarchy.
Don’t you hate it when that happens?
Nice try, Bluth. But those contracts were negotiated in the 80′s and 90′s, and they knew damn well at the time that they were going to be unsustainable.
http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2011/09/05/rhode-island-pension-system-collapsing/
RI isn’t alone in this either -
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-state-debt-20130114,0,3244487.story
anon,
I know they were. But the train left the station a long time ago, headed down tracks that were laid with another destination in mind. I’m not saying that staying on a doomed road isn’t madness, but I am saying it’s important to understand how anyone could have thought it was possible to lay the tracks in that direction in the first place.
Sorry, rebooted.
But it doesn’t take an econ degree to see that if you’re going to have to keep raising taxes on the people and businesses (even if apparently semi-thriving) that were here at the time, that in time they were going to fuck off for elsewhere. Or that if you keep handing out the freebies to all and sundry to keep the votes coming in (and make no mistake, they did. We also have one of the highest, if not the highest, benefit payment amount in the country.), eventually the ability to carry those folks was going to break under the strain as well. And if you have the freedom to retire at 50 and fuck off to Florida with your nice fat pension as you don’t want to pay the tax tab here to sustain it either, well then it’s no skin off of your own ass either.
Porn, I do get all that, I do, I think you miss my point. Which is that human beings always and everywhere never fail to fight the war that is over, and not the war that is raging. I’m not defending the deals that never should have been made, I’m suggesting that they also reveal, in shadow only, the alternative future that, alas, failed to happen.
Bluth, that alternative future was never going to happen. Ever.
Is it only me and Gunny who think that continual growth is not only impossible, but undesirable?
I wouldn’t want anybody to think that I’m not interested in this discussion. It’s just that the sun is still a long way south of the yardarm, and I’ll need several drinks at least before I’m willing to pretend that the obvious solution to anybody’s economic problems is to pauperize my friends. Whose mistakes were to take their jobs seriously, and keep on doing them long after I bailed for more, you know, money, and to imagine that a promise is a promise even when it’s made to them, and other reckless foolishness like that. Foolishness so extreme that it even led them to buy houses they won’t be able to keep once you get them living on SSI, and other delusional shit like that.
But, like I said, that doesn’t mean I’m not interested. I promise to check back later to see what y’all have figured out.
Porn,
There was clearly a time when that seemed like the only possible reasonable and just future. That is my point and my only point. But no one seems to be able quite to hear it.
And my other point was, that if the surplus of the last 30 years had been distributed in the same wider way as it had been distributed for the 30 years before that, then no extra growth would have been needed to land us in a very very different, and far fairer, and far less drastic situation than the one we are in now.
Iss ok, Natty, you can let me know how pauperized folks tapped out, hanging onto jobs (that surprise! we take seriously too!) by a thread (we’ve all just had our hours cut by half as business is down so far) unable to pay their rent / mortgage, escalating heating bills, feed their families, afford medical care, etc can somehow afford to foot all of the above for your pauperized friends. It’s bail out ourselves, or wind up on the benefit rolls ourselves.
Show me some numbers, and i might consider taking you seriously.
Kevin, you out there?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/jan/22/space-mining-gold-asteroids