Judge not that ye be Judged?

“We’ve got to remember that most of what we do in court comes from some Scripture or is backed by Scripture,” Moore said after taking the oath of office.


“Take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus,” Alabama State Auditor Jim Zeigler told The Washington Examiner. “There’s just nothing immoral or illegal here. Maybe just a little bit unusual.”

(I thought it was a virgin giving birth to a child after being impregnated by the Holy Ghost that was ‘maybe just a little bit unusual’, but I must have read a different New Testament at Sunday School.)

I did, however, a little later, read the medieval Coventry Pageant, though what’s termed ‘Joseph’s Doubts’ appear in most of the ‘Mystery Play’ cycles:

“Forsooth, this child, dame,

Is not mine . . .

Tell me, woman, whose is this child?”

“No-one but yours, husband so mild . . .”

“Husband i’ faith, and that a-cold. . .

All old men, example take by me,

How I am beguiled here may you see,

To wed so young a child!”


According to the Pew Research Center, 86 percent of Alabama residents identify as Christian, and 49 percent are evangelical. White evangelicals have become much more likely to say a person who commits an “immoral” act can behave ethically in a public role. In 2011, 30 percent of these evangelicals said this, but that shot up to 72 percent, according to a survey published last year by the Public Religion Research Institute.

(Well, they must be reading a version of ‘Render unto Ceasar. . .” or possibly “Let he who is without sin. . .” I didn’t get at Sunday School either.)

By the look of it, the best Republicans can do seems to be “Well, if it’s proved,  he should get lost.” But I understand that the time limit for any prosecution in Alabama is long, long gone.

Debbie Dooley, a co-founder of the Atlanta Tea Party, attended Moore’s rally with Sarah Palin in Montgomery, in September, and has campaigned for the former Alabama Chief Justice almost constantly since he won the Republican Senate primary … “I think the allegations are bullshit,” Dooley said; “All the story has accomplished is to galvanize the support of Roy Moore, which I already see happening on Facebook.” [New Yorker]

As a would-be president said, some people could go out on Park Avenue and open fire on the passers-by, and it wouldn’t make any damn difference.

40 Responses to Judge not that ye be Judged?

  1. bluthner says:

    The whole evangelical culture is based entirely on the washing clean of sin when you come to Jesus to get ‘reborn’ in Him. So for plenty of those types, all Moore has to prove is that after he got done with his years of child molestation he turned himself and his heart of hearts over to the Lord with complete sincerety (and regular and healthy financial donations to the ministry), and they will grant him absolution.

    The Devil was with those girls, tempting him sorely. Etc etc. It’s always the fault of the female, from Genisis on down.

  2. bluthner says:

    Plus now we have a better idea of why he might be carrying that little gun in his pocket: in case one of the women he molested as children, or their daddies or brothers or mothers or sisters or angry uncles, etc, decide it’s payback time.

  3. NatashaFatale says:


    What a well put together little post. One would think you used to be a gen-u-ine journalist or something. Admirable.

    Cotton Mather wrote a book-length account of the Salem witch trials, at least the part where he presided. I have it. In it he told how when you run your hands over – all over – the body of a comely young witch, you can actually feel the Satanic wickedness flowing into you. That’s when you know you need to send her to the gallows.

  4. Squirrel says:

    Blather: well, I can’t get my head around the ‘evangelical culture’, even having been brought up not even as a Methodist, but a Primitive Methodist.

    (There was a row when, as the two or three families that made up the congregation died out, we had to eventually amalgamate with the Wesleyans, because they had a cross on the wall behind the communion table. . .almost Papist! I’d stopped going to chapel by then, but they did give me the job of designing the sets for the annual pantomime.)

    My only experience of evangelicals has been being accosted every now and then and being told if I went along with them to pray, god would somehow guarantee I could leave my wheelchair behind and get up and walk immediately. (Fortunately, they’ve either given up or stopped roaming the streets of late.)

    I did think of taking one lot up with their offer, calculating that I could probably get out of my wheelchair and get to the exit, hopefully clutching the lucrative proceeds of the collection plates, before falling over and spoiling the illusion, but I thought I might not get either my crutches or the wheelchair back.

  5. Squirrel says:

    he told how when you run your hands over – all over – the body of a comely young witch, you can actually feel the Satanic wickedness flowing into you.

    Yes, I’ve felt it flowing into me many a time. . .hang on, weren’t some of the Salem witches on the young side?

  6. bluthner says:

    …when you run your hands over – all over – the body of a comely young witch, you can actually feel the Satanic wickedness flowing into you.

    Hell, I work at a desk by a window and there are times when I look out that window and see a comely young woman walk by and I can feel the Satanic wickedness flow into me from the far side of the street, across two lanes of traffic, two lines of parked cars, and through the foliage of a couple of trees. It’s a powerful wickedness all right. And I’m way older than Moore was when he was so sorely tempted. We should all feel nothing but understanding and pity for helpless men so young as Moore was back in the day when he was an assistant D.A., an offical of the court and over 30 years old when those wicked children had the temerity to tempt him so.


    I attended a Primitive Methodist Sunday school a few Sundays one summer when I must’ve been… maybe 8 years old? Only so my mother could play tennis without having to hire a babysitter, but even at 8 the regime seemed fairly undemonstrative, and dead set against the kind of grandstanding egotism of the revival tent. (Not that I understood that at the time; I didn’t know what went on in revival tents until I was 16-17 and there was nothing else much to do on a Friday night but buy a couple of six packs of beer and sit and drink them in the back row of whatever revival tent was pitched on the waste ground down by the cement plant. Which sounds like not much fun, but the good part was when, after we had downed the beer, and some of the womenfolk up front had jumped up and spoken in tongues, and we got the giggles, the spotlight would be turned around on us and the Preacherman would bellow: Satan! Satan is here tonight! INSIDE the tent Brothers and Sisters! He must be expelled!

    Which was our cue to leave. It was safe enough because no one would have been carrying in those days,; if we hadn’t shown up voluntarily the Precherman might have offered us a sixpack to play our part and complete the evenings entertainment for the faithful.

  7. Squirrel says:

    More biblical bafflement. Moore has apparently said to WashPo:

    “There is no such thing as evolution. That we came from a snake? No, I don’t believe that.”

  8. bluthner says:

    That bit about the snake sounds the baldest Freudian slip from a man facing accusations of sexual assault against minors.

    But I guess he’s not so far off: snakes and humans certainly have a common ancestor if one follows the lines of evolution far enough backwards, that common ancestor was probably some kind of fishlike animal, but maybe one that looked at least a little bit like a snake. But why not run all the way back to primeaval slime? I’m sure he’d feel more at home with slime.

  9. Turns out it’s all OK and Moore’s conduct has biblical justification after all.
    Here’s Alabama State Auditor Jim Ziegler to explain the niceties for us;

    “He’s clean as a hound’s tooth…[take] Zachariah and Elizabeth for instance. Zachariah was extremely old to marry Elizabeth and they became the parents of John the Baptist. … Also take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus.”

    Hmmmm. Whatever happened to;

    Gaudete, Christus est Natus
    Ex Maria, Virginae.

    Details, details eh?

    “There is no such thing as evolution. That we came from a snake? No, I don’t believe that.”

    Yeah. Him and Benny (The Blade) Carson are on the exact same page with that.

  10. Squirrel says:

    even at 8 the regime seemed fairly undemonstrative, and dead set against the kind of grandstanding egotism of the revival tent.

    It was, I think. The singing and organ playing was good, there was a lot of it, and there was a full performance of Handel’s Messiah every Easter. (Though for that we joined another chapel—not the Wesleyan one—at ours, there weren’t enough people left for the chorus!) Sermons were really stories, not exhortations. One odd legacy of it is (and it’s bewildered friends ever since) that I’m totally incapable of playing any card game other than snap or patience. And I don’t know how to place a bet on anything.

  11. Squirrel says:

    That bit about the snake sounds the baldest Freudian slip from a man facing accusations of sexual assault against minors.

    Well spotted. I was still wondering if it could have been some weird misunderstanding of some child’s illustrated version of Paradise Lost . . .Genesis definitely states “Adam knew Eve . . .” and not the snake. . .(I checked.)

    I checked Zachariah, too. (I thought there was something wrong there.)

    In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah. . .his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. Both of them were righteous in the sight of God .. .But they were childless because Elizabeth was not able to conceive, and they were both very old. [Luke]

  12. bluthner says:


    I guess the Methodists weren’t/aren’t as extreme in some articles of faith as the Presbetyrians (and vice versa), but your comment about being ruined for gambling might shed light on what Keynes said about Wilson (an arch Southern Presbyterian): “…There can seldom have been a statesman of the first rank more incompetent than the President in the agilities of the council chamber.”

    the ‘agilities of the council chamber” being of course another name for all the skills necessary to win at poker.

  13. bluthner says:

    Good catch on Zachariah, btw. You’d think that someone in the bible banging states might have spotted that inside, dunno, about 4 seconds?

  14. Squirrel says:


    I didn’t know that, but there’s probably quite a bit of truth in it. (Now, if only I’d been brought up by Jesuits. . .)

  15. Squirrel says:

    You’d think that someone in the bible banging states might have spotted that inside, dunno, about 4 seconds?

    You would, wouldn’t you?

    From Mr Z’s bio: “Jim Zeigler was led to Christ and baptized by pastor, William K. Weaver” who obviously has a lot to answer for. (Apparently he died a couple of years back at 95, but I’ll stick with the present tense. . .)

  16. Squirrel says:

    Alabama could still vote him in. (Sq’s ‘Beware the Polls’ time again.)

    Looks good-ish at first:

    Vote Dem: 43.6%; Vote Judge Dreadful: 41.3%. But: vote Luther (no, not the German one) i.e. Republican: 12.3% . . .

    This despite “Have you read, seen, or heard any news stories in the past 24 hours regarding Senate candidate Roy Moore, which allege that Moore engaged in a sexual encounter with a 14-year-old girl in 1979, when he was 32 years old?”

    Yes: 82%

    Not asked: ‘Does it make a ha’porth of difference?”, but ‘Should the Judge withdraw?”: No, 54%; unsure 11.1%.

    Republican voters: 58%; Democrat: 29%; Independent 13%, (I’ve noticed that in the majority of ‘Republican’ states, a majority of ‘Independents’ end up voting for the Republican candidate.)

    Electoral make-up: White 75%; Evangelical Christian: 56.6%; high school education only: 1.8%; College educated: 54%.

    The sample’s a bit small. But it fits the trend.

  17. Squirrel says:

    Apparently, according to the Judge’s sermon, god will ensure he’s elected to Congress.

  18. Expat says:

    The current catharsis is good and constructive. It won’t be if it morphs into unquestioned hysteria.

  19. bluthner says:


    Pray tell what ‘unquestioned hysteria’ might look like?

  20. NatashaFatale says:

    Somebody has finally slapped Trump across the chops and gotten him to see that he, even he, needs Moore’s vote. And now he’s said so and Alabama will hear. I suspect that that will matter a lot. I’m not saying it will elect Moore but it will change things.

    I would propose substituting “unquestioning” or “reflexive” for “unquestioned” and “credulity” for “hysteria.” As in “she said it, so he did it.” We’ve already got it on college campuses and it’s unspeakably ugly. But first, we have to let it get that far. The possibility of Title 9 frenzy spreading in the future is no reason to give these guys a pass today.

  21. Expat says:

    Didn’t say, and wasn’t suggesting that anyone gets a pass.

    And there is certainly schadenfreude in watching the growing cast of characters squirm.

    Pray tell what ‘unquestioned hysteria’ might look like?

    Salem witch trials? Or some of the 1980s child abuse cases that were deemed miscarriages of justice? I know that these were with impressionable children but adults can have false memories too. Then add in third party ulterior motives. It could get ugly.

  22. NatashaFatale says:

    Yes, those child abuse cases do leap to mind. They’ve leapt to Madame’s mind, on account of umpty thousand comments she’s read on Slate (getting Franken out of the senate is now much more important than thinking about Trump).

    So far I haven’t seen the college climate spreading, though. No one seems yet to be pushing the notion that admittedly consensual sex becomes rape if the woman ever comes to regret it, and so far we’re not hearing a whole lot denying on the part of the men Instead we’re mainly getting the expectable “I didn’t realize I was doing wrong because blah blah blah.” But it’s early days yet.

  23. bluthner says:

    I doubt very much that Franken will be hounded out of the Senate, only because if he has to go then there are too many others, on both sides of the aisle who won’t be able to stay either. No one is defending the frat boy photo, or the disgusting comedy sketch unwanted kiss, but both are pretty small beer compared to what Moore, or Trump, or so many other men have been accused of. But the hand on a buttock at the state fair during an impromtu photo- is there any pol safe from an accusation along those lines? Maybe one or two, but not many.

    Trump has exonerated Moore by observing that the man issued a total denial, so- how can he argue with that? Which fits with chucking Franken out of the Senate, because, of course he didn’t deny he’d done it. O the brilliance of it!


    If you mean stuff as extreme as Salem and the misery of the ‘recovered Satanic abuse’ business back in the 80s, then sure, anything even approaching that level of irrational horror would certainly not be good or constructive. But so far just about all the accusations I’ve heard, in any of the cases, seem to be deeply sober, reliably confirmed by other deeply sober witnesses, and the far opposite of unquestioned or hysterical. Long may it last.

  24. KevinNevada says:

    There is a recovered-memory frenzy happening right now in Australia, very much as ours ran in the 1980’s, and with zero apparent memory of how fallacious our own frenzy became – or how many ugly miscarriages of justice resulted. (Nor, of how the fallacious “recovered memories” scarred the lives of the people doing this ‘remembering’.)

    In Australia right now, if someone dares to question the Perfection of Recovered Memory, they are immediately hounded back into silence, as active abettors of the “abusers”. There is a case right now of a father sent to prison for something that no other witness has confirmed, alleged years-long abuse of daughters who were outstanding and cheerful athletes as teens.

    Australia is also dealing with the Catholic Church’s record of abuse, including the (alleged) personal actions of their former Cardinal, so it’s a ripe time for the therapists to work their wonders.

    So it can happen here, again. Just let the phony “therapists” loose on some malleable “victims” and we’ll be down the rabbit hole once more.

  25. NatashaFatale says:


    Yes, “so far just about all the accusations” – the actual accusations – have been sober and reliably confirmed. But not all the commentary, and especially not all the commentary on the web. A lot of it is as hysterical as anyone could wish for.

  26. Expat says:

    But so far just about all the accusations I’ve heard, in any of the cases, seem to be deeply sober, reliably confirmed by other deeply sober witnesses, and the far opposite of unquestioned or hysterical. Long may it last.

    I agree. Just considering what could happen, a favorite pastime here.

  27. bluthner says:


    I’ll take your word for the quality of the commentary, in the swamps of the interweb or elsewhere. I must tend to read fairly sober sources, on the whole, because so far I haven’t yet com across anything even remotely approaching hysterical.

  28. bluthner says:

    addendum: the only widespread overstatement I’ve seen in the press is the consistent labelling of Moore as a paedophile, when technically he seems pretty clearly to be more of an ephebophile or hebephile. But that’s pretty much splitting hairs, when in comes to a 32 year old sexually assaulting a 14 year old.

  29. Just considering what could happen, a favorite pastime here.

    Heh heh
    Well played, sir.
    Well played.

  30. NatashaFatale says:


    It’s all over the web, though. As you can see from this. (Not that I’ve ever considered her a reliable source before.) The “zero tolerance” she’s talking about is the same zero tolerance that gets school kids expelled for bringing a plastic knife or an aspirin to school (because guns and heroin are very bad). The doctrine of zero tolerance now says that Franken must go and Bill Clinton must somehow be retroactively re-impeached.

  31. bluthner says:


    I read that, but note it doesn’t actually reference any examples of calls for ‘zero tolerance’, just states that there is a risk if we go down the ‘zero tolerance’ road.

    I’m not suggesting all that commentary you (and she by implication) speak of is not all over the web. But if someone asked me where to find it I wouldn’t know where to point them.

  32. Expat says:

    Heh heh
    Well played, sir.
    Well played.

    You are very welcome :)

    …and everyone at 9thousandfeet – have a great Thanksgiving!

  33. KevinNevada says:


    Back to Trump and his now-open support for Roy Moore, it may do little good for Roy the Pedophile.

    The stories are adding up locally, Trump is not popular any more and in any case the Access Hollywood Pussy-grabbing tape is now getting rerun after rerun. Trump’s statement only provokes more reruns. The OH’s credibility on these matters is non-existent.

    Today, the news is a retired cop from Gadsden, AL, a woman, who remembers being assigned on some Friday nights, down at the high school, to the task of keeping Roy Moore from the DA’s office away from the cheerleaders. He was bothering them, and they (and probably also, their parents) raised a fuss. And she confirms that the department was also asked to help keep him away from young employees and shoppers at the local mall, too.

    Now watch them smear a retired cop. Oh, they will try. But it won’t do them much good.

  34. NatashaFatale says:


    Here’s one. Here’s another. But as I said, it’s mostly BTL.

  35. NatashaFatale says:

    Speaking of great Thanksgivings, Madame and I will be fressing out on soul food in Chicago (short ribs, chitlins and greens for one of us, mac & cheese, scalloped potatoes and yams for the other one). It’s very doubtful that I’ll back here before next Thursday, and if I’m not I don’t want anyone thinking that I’ve gone on strike or anything.

  36. bluthner says:

    Go on Nat, rub it in: tomorrow, here, is just another day.

    Big Food Happy Gregarious Warm Turkey or Otherwise Wishes to everybody from me, too.

  37. KevinNevada says:

    To all: have a great Thanksgiving.

  38. bluthner says:

    This piece in the Atlantic by Adam Serwer is worth a read. Some samples:

    Overall, poor and working-class Americans did not support Trump; it was white Americans on all levels of the income spectrum who secured his victory.

    Clinton defeated Trump handily among Americans making less than $50,000 a year. Among voters making more than that, the two candidates ran roughly even. The electorate, however, skews wealthier than the general population. Voters making less than $50,000, whom Clinton won by a proportion of 53 to 41, accounted for only 36 percent of the votes cast, while those making more than $50,000—whom Trump won by a single point—made up 64 percent. The most economically vulnerable Americans voted for Clinton overwhelmingly; the usual presumption is exactly the opposite.

    Birtherism is a synthesis of the prejudice toward blacks, immigrants, and Muslims that swelled on the right during the Obama era: Obama was not merely black but also a foreigner, not just black and foreign but also a secret Muslim. Birtherism was not simply racism, but nationalism—a statement of values and a definition of who belongs in America. By embracing the conspiracy theory of Obama’s faith and foreign birth, Trump was also endorsing a definition of being American that excluded the first black president. Birtherism, and then Trumpism, united all three rising strains of prejudice on the right in opposition to the man who had become the sum of their fears. In this sense only, the Calamity Thesis is correct. The great cataclysm in white America that led to Donald Trump was the election of Barack Obama.

    Trumpism emerged from a haze of delusion, denial, pride, and cruelty—not as a historical anomaly, but as a profoundly American phenomenon. This explains both how tens of millions of white Americans could pull the lever for a candidate running on a racist platform and justify doing so, and why a predominantly white political class would search so desperately for an alternative explanation for what it had just seen. To acknowledge the centrality of racial inequality to American democracy is to question its legitimacy—so it must be denied.

    …a majority of white voters backed a candidate who assured them that they will never have to share this country with people of color as equals. That is the reality that all Americans will have to deal with, and one that most of the country has yet to confront.

  39. Squirrel says:

    “If you’re white,
    All right;
    If you’re black,
    Stay back;
    If you’re brown,
    Stay down.”

    A common rhyme in New York, back in the Fifties. It was quoted to us when we were young students by a Guianan writer in a seminar.

  40. KevinNevada says:


    I think that article is dead on target. I find this intense dislike for Obama from people who would normally be rational about public issues, ready to discuss one viewpoint or another – but who express a visceral rejection of Barack Obama.

    His presence in the Oval Office bothered them every day, for eight years.

    The new meme of explaining it is “White Privilege”, a concept I had trouble with when I first heard it widely. I think there is something solid about it, now. For most well-off, comfortable white Americans, Boomers or older, they could always safety assume this was ‘their country’ more than it was anyone else’s. That is not true any more.

    Trump promised to bring that comfortable feeling back, for them. He expresses a nasty hostility to the new society, new ways of thinking, new rules of behavior. The nastier the better, for his core supporters, which is why they aren’t bothered by his conduct.

    This nativism isn’t new, it’s cropped up before.

    But therein lies his weak spot, and that of his movement too. The changes are happening anyway. Corporate America has zero tolerance for racism or sexism or exclusion, any more. They have enough trouble finding enough qualified workers who are willing to fill jobs, the Boomers are retiring and in many specialties the replacements are not there. Further, they do business on a global scale now.

    (Most Americans don’t want to be isolated from the other 95 percent of the planet, and our businesses cannot afford to be. Trump and Bannon are leading a movement with no place to go, and no long-term prospects. It’s a backlash.)

    Same with climate change! The policies of this Administration are irrelevant to the decisions, for example, of the power companies. “Clean Coal” is a fantasy, but it is also more costly to use than natural gas, and the solar PV panels are now falling in price too. Sales of electric cars are booming – because they are fun to drive. The states are pushing their own sustainability policies, and many cities, including places run by Republicans.

    I attended the “Clean Energy Summit” here in LV last month. The Mayor’s Panel included one Democrat and two Republicans – one from Indiana and one from Texas. Sustainability is important to success, now, at municipal level. Scott Pruitt isn’t going to stop this movement.

    After the climate disasters of the past six months, all over the world, even some conservatives now realize that climate change is real, cannot be denied any more.

    West of the Continental Divide, Trumpism is only popular in portions of Arizona, and in the militia heaven of Idaho. I think the Mormons from Idaho and Utah, down into Arizona, are now having buyer’s remorse about Trump, for they actually do care about the conduct of leaders. That will provide some interesting results in the mid-terms next year.

    As for the original topic of this thread, ironically we are having a fresh burst of progress against piggery, throughout our society, with that rampantly ugly pig newly arrived in the Oval Office.

    To close: Roy Moore’s communications director quit that campaign on Wednesday.
    And Uma Thurman is starting to unload on Weinstein. The Bride is pissed off.

    This show is just beginning. Nuke some popcorn, friends.

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